How a 15% Price Cut Sent a Ridge Product’s Revenue Up 60%

Welcome to episode 130 of Marketing Operators. Today we are talking about how to maximize revenue per session on your site. Connor shares what they do at Ridge. He's been spending a lot of time on building bundles and shares a lot of the tactics that they've been doing. And then we are joined from Varun Kundra from AfterSell to show us all about post-purchase upsells, in-checkout upsells, all the work that they're doing, all the noise they've been making on X. Plus stay till the very end, Varun and Connor screen share. They show the Wink site and they rip it apart. You're not going to want to miss that one. Right now, I'm about to hop into Claude and Codex to make a lot of the changes that they recommended because they had some really good ideas. So stay tuned, check it out. You're not going to want to miss this one. All right. What's up, man? It was good seeing you in person. I think it was last week. I mean, we were out in Montana, Bozeman, Montana for the Postscript event. And now we're back online, just me and Connor McDonald today. What's going on?

I, you know, spent so long in Salt Lake. I've got I've got a special place in my heart for the Mountain West, so it's always good to get out there.

Start, let's start with this. Do you have any brands that you love to look at that you're just like, hey, I love to see what they're doing on site from like an upsell bundle offer perspective?

Yeah, 100%. I mean, a lot of these are brands that are often talked about. You think about a Garoons, you know, Zach Stuck, Mars Men, Holo Socks is, Holo Socks is fantastic. Zach is like best in the business, I think, at like teeing up bundles. The other one that I always bring up is Nectar Mattress. They are fantastic. And it's not so much bundling. They actually have a really strategic way to like get these, they have like complimentary items that they'll at times auto-attach, at times not auto-attach. And it's like, I think it's like a $200 cost. And they just do an extremely good integrated seamless design of like getting people in and out of that. I look at their from like a UI/UX perspective, they are just like fantastic. Those have been a few that are top of mind. I wanna get into bundling in a little bit, and I have an example from Wavewear, so I won't go too deep on them now. I'll share my screen later. But yeah, who are, what are some of the brands that you're looking at?

Obviously I have been heavily looking into, you know, subscription offers, PDPs, things like that lately. So obviously you have, yeah, you have your Groons, you have your stuff like that. You know, AG1 is clean. IM8 is obviously incredible for what they're doing with like pushing the 90-day, you know, Primal Queen is like scaling fast looking at that. So, so yeah, those are a lot of the talked about ones. Let me see who's like not, like, I love Sean's video the other day on, on like a lot of like the, you know, here's brands that are doing well that are not the IM8 and Gruens. Like he mentioned Sunpowder. They have a pretty cool Yeah. So they're doing a similar thing with like the 90-day, you know, really good offer, de-incentivizing the one-time. That's one of the reasons IM8 is able to scale so fast. A, they have the, you know, the AOV, they have like a super high AOV and I think they're pushing that up quarter over quarter, but also just for the cash conversion cycle and for their ability to, you know, sell into a 90-day is really cool. And then we'll talk about post-purchase upsells as well, because there's a really cool stuff like people are doing with subscription bundles, upgrades.

But when we talk about like, quote unquote, how to extract as much revenue per session, there's like 2 ways of doing it. Um, this kind of goes back to price testing, which we've talked about often over the course of the last 2 years. Um, but there's 2 ways to do it. You wanna be driving up average order value faster than you're decreasing conversion rate. And that can happen from bundling, and that can happen from, um, just increasing prices. Uh, but this idea that Those are the 2 toggles that you have, the value per order and the rate at which someone creates one of those orders. And then the inverse is true where it's like you can actually be lowering prices and increasing revenue per session if it means that you can drive up conversion rate more significantly. Everyone is talking about AI, but few operators are actually using it to speed up their marketing and make better decisions. At Ridge, we use Runneth. It's an AI brain for the whole marketing team. It watches every creative you've ever run, knows what's inside of each one and connect it to what actually drove revenue. You can plug it into your Klaviyo, Shopify, Northbeam, your whole Google Drive. It reads all of it. So instead of asking what worked last quarter, anyone on your team can ask for 10 evergreen concepts worth testing before Q4 and get them back within minutes. We use it, HexClad uses it, Jones Road uses it. It's the best AI brain for e-com brands on the planet. If you don't use it, you're gonna fall behind. Go to runnith.com and book a strategy session. Mention Marketing Operator sent you and you'll get $1,000 in free credits. And the 2 examples I bring up all the time are, well, let's put it on the high end. Um, you could be increasing prices without decreasing conversion rate. This could be as simple as like adding relevant bundles, and maybe we could segue into that after this. Um, where all of a sudden, if you were just thoughtfully and intuitively teeing up the complementary, complementary products, potentially the exact same amount of people will convert. Just some amount of them are converting at a higher order value. So boom, that's like easy revenue per session extraction. And then the flip side, I bring up pens all the time where if you can just find like small optimizations, uh, you can drop prices 15% like we did with pens. And because we landed at a spot that consumers are far more willing to pay, revenue increased on pens 60%. So just to like really agnostically, as we go through some of these, um, different tactics and ideas, like those are the 2 things that you're trying to balance, driving up order, driving up or down order value, and it having a beneficial or negative impact on conversion rate and just making sure that's balanced. penciling to an increase in revenue per session.

Yeah, no, agree with that. And, and where do you stand? Are you like an AOV maximalist where like you think like that should be like primary focus? Are you like, you try to balance both? Because like, I think when in doubt, like anything you can do to drive up AOV is, is usually a good thing.

Fantastic question. I felt multiple ways about this over the last few years. One of the things that we did early on at Ridge where we were basically like order value maximalists, we went from having I think when I started, the base wallet was like $75. We're at $95 now. Carbon fiber, we moved up to $150. Like for the first year I was at Ridge, we like slowly tested into just higher prices and we, and we saw the increase in value outpace any sort of decrease in conversion rate. So for a long time, I was like a price maximalist where you could just increase prices and that would be better. The 2 things that I'll say here quickly, there, I've seen many examples from Ridge of us increasing prices too aggressively, it having a net negative impact on revenue possession in the short term. And then we'll, we'll say theoretically that being at these higher prices will allow us to do larger discounts during promotional periods and that net-net, we might be able to drive more volume. I think that's an extremely like tricky line to walk. Um, because as soon as you're really increasing prices at the expense of your ability to acquire customers short-term, I think it's easy to forget the effective deficit that you're building, waiting for that promotional period where you can scale. And then you also run into this issue where if you have any sort of commodity product, like, you know, it could be anything for us. Um, but if it's wedding bands, if we over-increase our prices on wedding bands so that we could run larger percent-off promos, you know, 3 or 4 times a year. Um, it's not as if someone's waiting around waiting for that promo. They need a wedding band. We're just going to lose that, that consumer to another brand if you're in a competitive category that way. Um, so I think that's one example of like, you can very quickly increase prices too much at the expense of acquisition. And it's really hard in my opinion, to make it up with larger promo periods. The second thing that I'll say is, um, and I'd be curious your perspective on this. We have other examples where We've tested prices. And for example, let's say it's a wallet. We'll test it at $150 and $95. We won't see that big of a difference in revenue per session that the increase in, um, order, uh, the increase in price here is almost equivalent to the decrease in conversion rate. But in the scenario where it's $95, we're selling far more units. And my theory is that we will actually benefit over the long term at that lower price by being able to drive more signal to something like Meta. And I almost prefer being able to, it's not a cheap product. It's not as if we're selling it for $40 or $30, which I think you end up having the issue of needing to acquire too many customers at some point. But if it's the difference between $100 and $150, I'll almost take the $100 so that I can drive more volume so that we have more signal. We have a larger TAM, and then we can almost figure out how to drive up order value elsewhere with things like bundles and upsells. So I think there's this component to it where it's like, what are the prices that create enough signal for you to actually optimize for it on Meta? And that, that's like this very weird sort of like long tail effect that a lot of people will miss if you're just doing an A/B test on IntelliGems.

Our journey, Jones Road, I was, uh, you know, AOV maximalist, like for years we would only have ad spend on like 2 hero products. And part of it is like we could create funnels around those and be at a $100 AOV. Right? There were maybe like a $40 product and then upsells and quiz funnel and all of that stuff. By the way, quiz funnels are great for increasing revenue per session because you can recommend upsells personalized as well. So that is just like another really good one. But so we did that and we just drove it up. We just drove it up and got to like $110 AOV last year, like really high. So we did value optimization. So we put like 60% of our account on that, which worked. We did a lot of kits, which are bundles and stuff like that. Um, up like our free shipping threshold every time we tested was like very high, like an average in our space was like $45, $80. We, ours was $85, but we had the best profit per session while doing that. Right. Like, and, you know, looking at shipping costs. So we did a lot of these tests to really drive it up. And I think to me, it's like a growth versus profit thing. It looks great on like a profit per session and an IntelliGems, like, like you're, saying on a 2-week conversion lift test, value optimization looks great. I, I think it's great for profit. I think, um, as you get more expensive, more premium, your TAM gets smaller. And so I think it was kind of a little bit shortsighted versus you're saying like, sometimes it's helpful to have lower, you know, lower price, more volume. You're saying more signal of meta, but also just like larger TAM. So we started getting a lot of, you know, feedback and just seeing some signal that like we over-optimized in that direction. Right. And we were very, very profitable at that. But if we were willing to take less margin per order, there's probably a lot more people that we could get to try us. So we did that and we lowered free shipping threshold from $85 to $55. It was a test. It converted better. Net revenue per session was actually negative, right? Profit per session, right? Like it converted better, but we dropped AOV so much. that. And, and now we're paying, we're not collecting shipping revenue as much. So like we are making less per order. We chose that as a positive because we thought it would enhance our potential TAM, right? Like, like there's a lot of people that might not want to spend $100 on, you know, a new makeup brand, but are willing to spend $50 or $60 or something like that. And then obviously you have the LTV components and more signal and stuff like that. So we did it. Well, what I'll say is, We probably went too far into the raising it volume, high OV. And then I think we kind of lowered it too much. And so now I think we're trying to get, we were trying to get back to a good baseline, which was like, let's have funnels and offers for high OV that are on value. Let's have some offers and funnels that are lower, right? And let's kind of have these offers for different segments of the market. And then let's just try to balance between them. 'Cause I, so we went too high and too low. And I think trying to find that sweet spot is really important.

I also agree directionally, this is what you're describing and our experience at Ridge where early on it was advantageous to go higher prices. I also think there's like a time component to this where I'm like, look, uh, when it was 2020, 2021, everybody's getting free checks from the government. Everybody was shopping online. It was like, there was just more disposable income to go around. It was a less competitive market and you could command higher prices more effectively at that point. So some of this is just like the general sort of progression of how a brand might offer prices to different consumers. I also think for our sort of cohort of brands, it might've been particularly a good time to do it. Um, but just this idea that like you start out early, you acquire the, the less price sensitive, um, customers and you sort of like extract value at the highest margin you can early on. And then as you acquire your, you know, 5 millionth, 10 millionth customer, your prices should naturally go down. There's no difference in like Tesla. Tesla came out, it was like a premium vehicle. Now they have like a great $30,000 base model and it's like, yeah, they had to sell more cars in order to do that. They had to decrease prices over time. They also get the benefits of scale where they could be dropping COGS and they have a more, that's a lower margin business than something like cosmetics or, you know, wedding bands. But just that general progression, I think, is maybe a little underappreciated.

Absolutely agree. I think that was the thought process. There are still times where I am an AOV maximalist. Like I have been, I've had this one recurring MentorPass client and they have like a $16 CAC on Meta and probably like a $35, $40 AOV. And I'm like, you guys are phenomenal advertisers. Like there's not a thing I could say to get you from a $16 CPA to like a $14. Like it's just like that, like That's just, you know, 99th percentile. Like, how do we get you to actually be okay with a $25 CAC, a $30 CAC? Because then you can, you can just increase, you know, and it's the whole Dan Kennedy, whoever can spend the most to acquire a customer wins. So I think it also depends where you're at, right? If you're, you know, in a smaller percentile and you're, you know, $35 AOV, like, yeah, you should really focus on getting that to a $50 to $75 range. If you're Ridge or Jones Road and you're at 120, like you probably don't need to focus on getting to 170. Like, I don't know that that's going to get, you're going to have diminishing returns and maybe even some negative returns on that.

I couldn't agree more. You know, one interesting anecdote when we were launching Gut Culture, and I don't know if you've had this experience at Winks yet, I thought this was very enlightening and I've seen more discussions around it on X and things like that. But we had 2 bundle prices. We had, you know, a $29 bundle and then we had like an $88 bundle. And that was a 30-day subscription and a 90-day subscription. You brought it up earlier. We're seeing this a lot with I Am 8, with Primal Queen, these subscription businesses trying to capture more of that value immediately and then charge on a less frequent recurring basis. And we A/B tested this in Intelligems right from Meta. And the 90-day subscription did horribly, like really bad, just absolutely dead on arrival. And then when we just simply duplicated those PDPs and launched them both within Meta, we actually acquired the 90-day subscription customers at a really effective CPA. And what I thought was so interesting about that is like just how much price is related to how much price and offer is related to who Meta's targeting, that if you say, hey, Meta, for the last 45 days, I've been acquiring customers at this 30-day subscription price, and now I'm gonna just surprise you, and 50% of traffic's gonna go to the 90-day. Like, it can really sort of crush your conversion rate. Whereas if you launch it separately and you tell Meta explicitly, I am trying to acquire someone at this $90 average order value, that Meta's actually far more effective at that. And it's the same thing with the brand that you just gave the example for. They have a $16 CPA at, you know, whatever, $35 average order value. when they go to launch their second funnel or third funnel, it's actually not a matter of A/B testing it against their current one. It could very well be thought of as just being incremental to what they currently do and allowing Meta to just capture people at different price points.

Absolutely. Yeah. And same thing with the Jones Road example where like we'd have multiple campaigns and it's the full funnel where like Kit's higher AOV is on value optimization. And then the other ones are on conversion optimization because we think that's the best way to get like the incremental reach. Um, and then what I'll say on, on the Wink side, we haven't really, we don't even have enough traffic to run like A/B tests yet. We hopefully will soon, but we definitely did start with a 90-day offer on PDP. And after like 2 days, we scrapped that because we were like, we just need more signal.

Yeah. And, and yeah, 100%. I also, again, I think that's underappreciated. I feel like I've had my, I've been beating the drum about this at Ridge where I'm like, we can say on paper, really high prices, really high dollar margin value is great for the business. And Um, you know, I've talked to finance people and they're like, well, look, if we increase it $50, like we have $50 more to spend on CAC. And it's like, it's completely removing consumer interest at that point where it's like, yeah, nobody wants to pay $450 for the luggage. I don't care if we have an additional $50 of CAC to spend on it. We've just shrunk our TAM like 80% or whatever. I'm exaggerating, but, um, we often forget how all these things are just so interconnected. Before Q4 hits, the smartest e-commerce operators aren't just asking, how do we spend more? They're asking, how do we make every visitor more profitable? That is where AfterSell comes in. AfterSell helps e-commerce brands increase revenue per visitor, contribution margin, and incremental profit by optimizing the highest intent moments: cart, checkout, post-purchase, and even the thank you page. Brands like HexClad, Ridge, and Pela are increasing their AOV across every cohort using these zero-risk upsells. We've tested and they have no negative impact on conversion. It's just more free money in your pocket. And with Rocked Thanks, you can offset your AfterSell subscription. No redesigns, no risky funnels, just better economics. Wanna see how much money you can make with AfterSell? Go to aftersell.com/rocketrevenueforecast, put in your numbers and see how much more profit your funnel will make before BFCM starts. We've been thinking a lot about bundling, and I'd love your perspective on this and how you guys approached it at Jones Road. Um, I've got basically 3 types of ways that we drive up order value currently. Um, the first one is the most effective and it's single silhouette bundles. And this is where like Zach Stucke is so strong with something like a Holo Socks, where if someone's in market for one pair of alpaca socks, the best thing that you can do is to get them sold into a second or even better, a third pair. Um, and these single silhouette bundles are just like simpler for people to work on. And here, let me pull up the example that I saw recently is if you need to be mixing and matching colors. Mm-hmm. This is a, in, in my opinion, um, it's the easiest to get someone to attach a second or third item to because they're on the PDP, they're bought into the product. Um, they understand what they're getting a second and third of. There's no additional education required. The difficulty of it is when you need to be adding multiple colors. So if I go to Ridge now, we, this is like kind of V1 of our bundler right now for the power bank. And you have the option between a single, a 2-pack, and a 3-pack. And as you click into each of these, you then have the ability to customize the second and third power bank that you're getting. And we see 60% of revenue from bundles come from orders where people are mixing and matching products. And the reason we got here is when we originally launched, we had like 3 colors. It was like, okay, we could do 3 colors. And then we launched like most of the variations you could get between a 2-pack and a 3-pack. But we're going to launch like a dozen power banks next year, and we're not going to be able to infinitely like pre-bundle all of these. So we need to make a great experience allowing someone to pick and choose the products that they're looking for. This is V1 of it. A/B tested this. We saw both a, just a lift across the board, lift in conversion rate, lift in order value. One of, it will have been maybe our most impactful sort of new feature.

So you're saying for you guys, it's a net benefit to allow people to pick their shades. Is that right?

It's a net benefit to—

And it doesn't, it doesn't hurt conversion rate. Enough.

Oh, totally. Yeah. So, so this is an example of a lot. Well, we tested it. What we had, what we tested ultimately was not the existence of bundles. We didn't test the existence of bundles. Like if you think about the progression, you go from single power bank PDP, and then you say, okay, well, what happens to that PDP if we offer a 2 and 3 pack? I would bet the fact that we're offering value that we would not only see an increase in order value, but we would also see an increase in conversion rate. But that's just what we launched with because we're like, I, I actually think a lot of our e-com strategy moving forward is just like, let's just do really thoughtful bundling on large TAM products like power banks. And if we just implement it really well on the e-com side, like we're gonna have an advantage against the Ankers or, um, you know, the other competitors in the market, the, the, the Chinese knockoffs that are selling on Amazon, things like that. Um, So that's like kind of V1 for us. And then what we tested into was rather than going from pre- Uh, prescribed bundles, like, hey, if you want a 3-pack, you have to get these 3 colors. We moved to this like loose bundler that allows you to just select the quantity that you want and then the amount, any combination of colors that you want. And I can go back over here. Uh, we don't have all that many right now. You, you're selecting between 6. You've got GT Out, Neon Tiger, Dark Harbor, Olive, Black, Orange. So there's 6 here. There's no way we would have offered all the different variations of 3-packs that someone might want. We have to give them the ability to basically build their own 3-pack. And this is what we saw. We drove more bundles than we would have otherwise seen. And, uh, so we drove up order value and we saw an increase in conversion rate, not like super significant, high single-digit percentages, but on, you know, our power bank business, that will be very impactful over time.

So I know here it's like a power bank where people can get 3 power banks, different colors or same. How does that strategy compare? Maybe it's a both thing versus an either or. How does this compare to the non-single ones and getting like a power bank plus a keychain plus a pen? Like, how do those bundles compare to those? How do you think about that?

So like, if we go over to wallets here, this is what I would call, this is the second one, is multi-silhouette bundles is how we talk about it. And you're gonna have to ignore this double swatch, it's 'cause my cash isn't cleared. This works if you're checking out the site for the first time. Multi-silhouette bundles I think are different because now all of a sudden someone has said, all right, I'm on the PDP, I'm looking for a wallet. We want to sell them into another non-wallet product. Uh, I think that is fundamentally different because there's additional product education needed for that. Um, everything about this PDP is selling a wallet. If anybody would be interested in buying 2 or 3 packs of wallets, then we would just do like something similar to the power bank example we just walked through where I would just be pushing them into buying multiples. That's much simpler to do. What we do for selling into KeyCase, or we have options with the pen and the knife, is like we actually have these dedicated PDPs built out where we can have more imagery, we can have more information, we can have more product education because now we're trying to get another $30, $40, $50 out of someone for a product that they are obviously less familiar with. So this is like our approach to it now, which is, um, a little bit less, I don't wanna say a little bit less intuitive. It's a little bit more disruptive. There's, literally more PDPs to visit, but there's more imagery and there's more information. And I think that helps with conversion rate over time. Um, this is how we drive up adoption. Now, with this as the third kind of line item here in my like ways to bundle products is upsells, which the distinction between, uh, like a bundle like this and an upsell is like you get a full PDP experience. We actually have this product built out in Shopify to sell the daily driver kit, the wallet plus the key case. Um, the upsells are just, what are the ways that we can incentivize to purchase anything else? In this case, we have, you know, the matte black tracker card here that you can just click here and add on, and you could also select it and make it orange. Um, if we go over to the wallet here, we'll have the Quick Draw card holder. So all of a sudden, this is a way that you could be building up, you're driving up UPT units per transaction without having to do these like pre-prescribed bundles or like additional Shopify products. This allows total flexibility. but also has to be sort of, at least from our perspective, a lighter touch form of getting these things added to cart. You don't have the same ability to, you know, create perceived value or education.

I don't wanna say it's table stakes, but like you kind of need it. Like 5 years ago, like no one had like in-checkout upsells and like you just more and more of the real estate of e-com sites become upsells. And I don't know, maybe some of it is not purely incremental, but like Again, it's just, you kind of need it throughout. So you guys are doing a really thoughtful job of it. Would you say, so like no one needs, or most people don't need multiple wallets and that's why you're, you're bundling it with other stuff versus like power bank, there's more of an appetite and demand for.

The other thing that I'll say, 'cause we've talked about this quite often, is like whether we get to choose, we get to choose to some degree, like what is the most advantageous for us to do? You have to choose priority. Like I also think it's easy to say, oh, hey, let's do multi-silhouette bundles. Let's do, single silhouette bundlers to drive up the same product in multiple units in the order, and let's do upsells and let's do all these other things. And it's like, ultimately, you almost have to think about it from like a share of voice perspective. Like, the consumer only has so much attention, there's only so many pixels on the screen, you have to choose your priority. And depending on the type of product and the way consumers buy it, like, that will lead you down certain paths. So we will naturally see tracker cards are an example of we launched as a single silhouette, We didn't do anything to drive 2-packs or 3-packs. We naturally saw people purchase 2 or 3-packs, and then we were just leaning into that behavior further by, by building things like the bundler. And now that we're launching new colors of tracker cards, we're leaning further into like the flexible bundle building. Um, so I think that's a big component of this year is just like understanding what is the natural purchasing behavior around some of these and, you know, complementing that or guiding that further. Rather than what I, what I advocate against all the time is trying to create some net new behavior.

I think people are surprised, like when it comes to upselling, and if you look at your frequently bought together, or if you look at your, you know, order journeys, like often, very often, not always, but often the best upsell is actually more of the same.

Okay. The last one I want to hit quickly, backtracking a little bit, but this, uh, this Wavewear is a brand I don't see a lot of people talking about. Um, I came across the founder on Twitter, seems super cool, organic cotton shell. I wanted to order some and they were out of my size, but I'm gonna be in market for these soon. But what I loved about this, I don't see this too often, is to my point earlier, they have 3-packs and 6-pack bundling options. And then obviously it's like fashion, so the ability to like select different colors is super important. And they have this, like, they have a swatch selector, but you can select multiple. So it's a very easy experience to say, hey, I just want like, if I want the 3-pack, I want 3 of the yin yang. black and white shorts, and you could just click that 3 times. And that's kind of how you're naturally building your 3-pack bundle. And then if I wanted the Glacier and the red and the yin yang, I can select those different. And this swatch is now multi-selected. And I just felt it was like a really clean way to do this. It felt pretty intuitive to me overall. Um, and like I said, it's something we're thinking a lot about. So, uh, something for us to experiment with as we streamline the process of buying multiple colors of the same product.

Yeah, we had a similar thing, uh, Jen's right on our mini Miracle Balm set because again, usually people don't need 2 of the same thing. So we probably would usually bundle different products and what makes sense to go together. But on a mini Miracle Balm, you know, like they would. And so we had a similar one where people could get 3 of the same colors or they could often get different. Ours was less clean because we had to have a lot more like shade education. But yeah, we had a very, very similar thing where you pick first your quantity and then you pick your shades and then you add to cart. You know the difference between hitting your numbers and missing them? Clear signal on what's actually driving growth. It can get really, really noisy. There's so much noise. You got platform data, you got blended data, MMM, all the acronyms, MTA, experiments, all of it, all pointing in different directions. The more you're spending, the faster you move, the more bad signal can cost you. That's why we use Houzz and we've been using it for years. That's why the other marketing operators do as well. They're the best tool on planet Earth for measuring what we call incrementality, which we talk about a lot on the podcast. What is the true impact of your advertising dollars on your business? We have causal MMM for channel-level budget calls, causal attribution down to the ad level, and Architect, their AI agent, tells you exactly where your next dollar should go. And the results speak for themselves. StockX saw a 41% lift in IROS using Houzz, and you're not stuck with a help desk. You get an embedded measurement strategist who actually helps your team make better decisions. Their whole team is great. We've worked with a lot of them. They are world-class here. Go to haus.io/operators, haus.io/operators, and start backing your budget calls with real causal data. So apparently if you talk about upsells and say upsells enough times, somebody from AfterSell will just show up randomly. So we are now joined by Varun from AfterSell, one of the co-founders. How's it going, man?

It's going great. How about you guys?

Doing well. Excited to chat, man. You guys have been, uh, you guys have been killing it on X. I know you just said before coming on, you've been seeing Winks everywhere. I've been seeing Aftersell on X. Seems like you guys are starting to go hard.

Yeah, we had over a million impressions in the last month or so. So pretty awesome.

Yeah, no, I love it because I love what you guys are sharing. It's actually like legit valuable stuff and, and a lot of upsell things that people are talking about. So I'm excited to actually chat about it and learn a little bit and then Would love to actually, um, during the session, pull up the, the Wink site and have both of you guys give it, give a little feedback on it. We don't have post-purchase upsells live, but even on the rest of it, as we talk about offers and stuff, because Connor and I just spent like 20 minutes just talking about offers and upsells.

Just quickly, Varun, did you know that we were going to be auditing the Wink site?

No. I'm completely unprepared. Um, so let's do it.

This will be fun.

You know, Cody told me last night, he was like, I'll moderate tomorrow's episode. And I was like, that's sick. Like Cody's stepping up as moderator.

He's, he's soliciting free consulting from Yeah, man, I should be getting paid for this. This is crazy.

There's not a lot of benefits to being a D2C podcast vendor. Sometimes you get free products, you get to try some David ice cream and some Cadence. And the other thing, right? The other thing is that you get free consulting. That's why I do it. Let's start post-purchase because that is where I want to, I want to learn the most from you. That's where I think you guys have been sharing the most. Um, especially like, I think it's super cool when it comes to supplement space. First of all, I feel like the designs you guys are sharing are really, really cool. Like I learned a lot of like direct response marketing from like ClickFunnels stuff. And they had like these like long-form VSLs. And, and when post-purchase upsells like first started happening in, in D2C on Shopify, like they were very, very limited. It was just like a product. And is this something that you guys are just pushing the needle on? Like, is Shopify allowing more customization? What's going on? And like, what's, what's, what's behind this kind of shift?

Great question. Great question. Yeah, so absolutely. I've also seen so many ClickFunnels and more direct response copy. And what we realized actually was that our top merchants from an RPV basis, revenue per visitor per order basis, were already kind of adopting those kind of UI elements and that kind of methodology themselves. They had figured out a way to do it. And we looked into the funnels and what they were doing was they were creating images everywhere. So it was like Shopify doesn't natively support HTML on the post-purchase API, for example. So you can't create whatever page you want. And that's been the limitation from day one. But if you are creative about it, you can just upload images that look like whatever you want instead. So that's what people are doing. This was always kind of possible, but now we've been kind of telling the world about it, and we've also made it even easier. We now have a templates library. If you go to aftersell.com/templates, you can just download a bunch of these elements. You can go to Cloud Design, tell Claude to make it more like your own products, your own branding, and then upload it back into AfterSell. We've also added features like VSL, which again are also not native. We've had to build that creatively. But yeah, like I think it's clear to me that, you know, a lot of merchants want this and we've just been leaning into it.

And is performance seemingly getting better, like across the board as brands are kind of adopting more DR styles and just like a little bit more elaborate built-out funnels?

For sure. Like I went through the top 10 stores by RPV. All of them have images and DR kind of narratives.

All right, let's talk, let's split this maybe. I just would love for you to go through some best practices. Let's start like, let's split it by subscription versus not, because I feel like that's probably different. Like I'm seeing a lot of people talk about the subscription offers. So first, non-subscription, like if somebody is just starting their post-purchase upsells or like At Jones Road and like Connor from HexClad has talked about this as well, like a lot of brands just throw them up and kind of aren't like optimizing them and taking them seriously. And there's probably a lot of money on the table. What are some of the best practices? Like how should they think about it? How many upsells? Like what are some of the tips for setting them up properly?

Yeah, yeah. I think there's like a couple different aspects of this. First maybe is just like the framing and the angle. Like I think a lot of people, they just do like a throwaway, you know, upsell, but I think the value for the merchant and for the customer is like when you make it part of the actual angle, part of the avatar, you know, be like, hey, like you're buying this, then if you buy Y, it will accelerate the outcome that you've already like micro-committed to, for example, right? Like maybe for Winks, you know, you bought Winks, you're committing to better sleep, buy Winks Pro Max, and then You know, you're committing even more or buy a, buy a, you know, a longer supply so that you have enough for the 90 days that it takes to, you know, actually complete that lifestyle change or whatever it is.

You know who does it well? Not, it's not post-purchase, but in-cart groans does that. And if you're buying their regular adult one, they have some stat and it's like 90% of people, it's whatever it is, but essentially tells you that like you're more likely to stick to it if you buy the kids one for your family as well. And so they do it pre, but that's a really good example. And yeah, I've seen that for like supplement brands post and they'll talk about like the time and they'll have like an image. So that seems to work. And just like talking about benefits and why the upsell is not just a pricing, but it helps with the benefit.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that kind of segues into like, like really what you're trying to do in the upsell is like answer the question of like, why is this even there? Right? Like it needs to feel like special, it needs to fit in. And I think it's just like the same CRO elements that happen pre-purchase, you can apply post-purchase, like the same philosophy, same psychological elements. And we're starting to see more and more people do that. And definitely the revenue numbers show the results there. The other things I would say is like, you want to stop the scroll. Like, we've seen a lot of funnels perform really well when there's an image at the top that says like, hold on, your order's not complete yet, or hold on, you just qualified for this special offer. Because the default is just to kind of glaze over the screen there and not really look into it, but you want to break out of that trance a little bit and get people to actually read and review what you wrote there. And then the third is just more of an approach. The approach is always just iterating and testing. We see some merchants like Ben from True Classic, for example, that they have new tests every week. They are hyper-optimizing it, right? And that obviously will have results if you keep testing and iterating, just like you would for any pre-purchase CRO elements.

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Are there general best practices of setup? Like, is it always like, hey, your, your, your main upsell should be more of the same at a discount, and then your If they, if they don't take it, your downsell should be this or your next, like, are there templates that are like generalized for 70% of the brands as like a good starting place?

Yeah, I would say for, depending on the category. So for supplements or just in general consumables, more of the same is really effective. I've also seen like more of like, again, a complementary consumable, but I would say more of the same is generally more successful. And then, yeah, if they accept more of the same, you can upsell them even more of the same. Like, you can do even higher amounts. And then if they decline more of the same, you can do lesser amounts. So that's a tactic I've seen. I would say for other categories, like maybe like apparel or beauty, I've seen a lot of like complete the set, complete the bundle kind of thing where it's like, Again, like it's not, you're not, you're not just buying another product. It's like, it's more like 1 plus 1 equals 3, or like with this other product, you have a more complete solution to, you know, whatever, whatever problem or whatever desire that you have.

I've got a quick question. Well, actually 2. One is a, like a very technical one. And Cody, maybe you guys are dealing with this. If I, uh, check out with a 30-day subscription and then I'm upsold something in the backend, am I being upsold into a quarterly subscription or am I being upsold individual units? And if I'm being upsold individual units, are the brands then thinking about my, um, what's it called? Like the next, uh, payment? Like, are they going to delay that for me because I bought a 60-day supply because I got a 30-day upsell?

So the way our quarterly subscription upgrade works by default is that it affects the second, uh, bill. So it affects the rebill. So, um, you know, you get the quarterly upgrade. after the 30-day period usually. We have seen people do just like bulk supply as well. But yeah, quarterly upgrade right now, as you guys have probably seen on Twitter, is very popular. All the top subscription brands are trying it. And I think it makes a lot of sense. Like, you know, it's just like if someone has already, again, microcommitted for 30 days, And then you're presenting them with, hey, like you've already microcommitted, let's just like complete that commitment at a lower cost. Um, you know, it works super well. And we've seen 20 to 30% conversion rates with that offer type, which is the highest I've seen.

And that's actually, you guys are switching the subscription for me on the backend. I checked out with a 30-day and I'm not just adding on additional items. You're actually switching me to a, to a quarterly subscription.

Correct. Yeah, we're changing the selling plan on the backend for the next cycle. Yeah.

So yeah, just, just for people who haven't seen, yeah, essentially if you come in on a subscription, most of them are 30 days and, you know, the most popular upsell right now, I originally saw Primal Queen talking about it like on X, but I think it's a very common and popular one. You know? Yeah. So rather than that subscription, that first month being changed to a 3-month supply, the first one gets fulfilled individually, but then on the next rebill, they would essentially be shipped a 3-month. I've heard this, whatever it is, obviously it's great for margin because you're consolidating 3 months of shipping into one. It's great for LTV and retention from brands that I've heard because like the people that are that invested in it are likely gonna take the product and get better results as well. So that's what I've heard. Why not change that first one? Like, I would imagine technically you can, and why not actually just ship them the 3 months from the beginning?

You can. We've had some merchants start to try it out. I think the reason some people are hesitant is just that, just because then like the initial charge is like 3x, you know, or not 3x, maybe 2.5x or whatever it is. And That's a bit of a shock to people sometimes.

One of the reasons I asked was I met with a brand recently who was doing, uh, the, uh, essentially bulk item upsells post-purchase. So you're checking out with a 30-day subscription. I'd get an additional 30 days of supply, but they wouldn't affect the subscription at all. I don't even know if they were using after-sale, frankly. Um, and then what they were not looking at is like the actual retention on those people. Because it was actually, when you dug into the data, you were creating churn because someone was oversupplied immediately.

Yes, 100%. Like I was talking to a retention expert the other day and that's exactly what he was saying, where like there is a risk if you have just a bulk supply and someone buys it and then may actually cancel your subscription. Obviously you don't want to do that.

Yeah, but it doesn't, from brands I've talked to, it doesn't sound like that's happening with the 90-day upsell, maybe because it's on the second.

Yeah, I think it's because it's on the second and then because it's also a subscription as opposed to like a one-time bulk supply. It's like, especially if you do that bulk supply after you've already done the 30-day, then like, you know, they'll get like probably within the span of a few days, like, you know, potentially like 4 months worth of stuff. If it's like a, you know, and then you're like, wait, holy shit. Like I have so much of this. Let me just cancel before, before I get even more kind of thing.

What have you seen when they come in on a one-time purchase, but it's a subscription brand who wants subscriptions? Everyone obviously wants to get as many subscriptions as possible. I've heard mixed things. I know that you can upsell them and try to convert a one-time to a subscription. I've seen you guys have some templates that's like, hey, get a refund in this one. But I've also heard conflicting stuff and it's like, hey, the, even just like general subscription lifecycle stuff, like it's very hard to convert somebody from a one-time to a subscription. It's actually like, it's a very different buyer often. And so some brands say you're better off just upselling them bulk more of that versus subscription. What have you seen? Where do you land on it?

Yeah, yeah, no, I've seen what you're saying as well. J4Jacob on Twitter had this post about that. Yeah, I generally like, I generally agree if they're one time and, you know, if they're one time, by the time they come around to post-purchase, like they've probably been tried, they've been like attempted to be upsold to subscription probably 4 or 5 times along the journey. So there's definitely an argument which is like, are they really going to switch to subscription then? And from the conversion rates, they're not like 20 to 30%, they're way lower for that kind of offer. So I think there is an argument in that case for bulk supply for sure. I think it's still contested. I think this is relatively recent that people have been testing all these things, so we'll probably We'll probably hear more in the coming months about how it pans out.

Totally. Um, that leads me to a product request I have for you, Varun. You came on a few weeks ago. I had one for you then. I wanted to do, um, I wanted to do after the thank you page, I wanted to be able to drive people back via email and SMS. This is my product, product request last time.

The double dash?

The double dash. I'd like that double dash formally supported by AfterSell. That's my request, but I've got number 2 today. And it's around this idea of, um, upsell sequencing. One of the reasons I'm excited for upsell apps to consolidate a little bit is like, we run our cart one way. We, we use AfterSell for both in-checkout and post-purchase now, but there was a time where those were different apps. And I'm like, so we're using the, from, from cart to in-checkout to post-purchase were 3 different apps at one point. As we get more consolidation, what I'd love to be able to test is the idea of sequencing. You said, hey, by the time someone checks out with a one-time order, They've already been, we've attempted to upsell them probably 3 times or something that like, they've probably already gotten all this messaging. They don't need it again. And right now there's very few tools to say, for us, it's something like if someone's checking out with a wallet, we try to upsell them the tracker card. It's like 20% of orders. It's by far our most popular upsell, but there's no way our optimal scenario is to hit the tracker card at every single point that we can. At some point it's redundant. It's, there's diminishing returns to that. And the sequencing, I think there's a lot of value in. So that's what I would love to see, um, is like being able to build out more cohesive journeys that account for what they just saw.

Connor, that's actually exactly our vision with the consolidation. Um, like we, yeah, we want like a funnel, not just to be like, not, not just to be post-purchase funnel, but like, like literally like, you know, from PDP to cart to checkout to post-purchase, potentially, you know, even beyond. I think that's, that's what the endgame is. Um, I think the endgame is like, actually, even from like the ad creative, like, you know, you'll have different avatars, different buyer types. Should they really necessarily see the same, you know, upsells in checkout, in cart, and post-purchase? Like, maybe, maybe not. Uh, my guess is that like the evolution of this space will become like full funnel personalization and targeting and upselling.

You guys got to change your name though.

If you're going to go full funnel, you got to cut the after, just go sell.

Pre-current and after sell.

This has been, this has been a topic of internal discussion for so long. Unfortunately, we're stuck with it. But I mean, at this point it has such a brand cachet that I don't think we can, I don't think we can switch. It's just too late, man.

You could drop the after sell. It's just cleaner.

Just sell. That's what I was saying.

Yeah.

Drop the after.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, all right.

I have plus one on both of those, but I have my product requests as well. I like the double dash. How far are you guys from having like a read and write MCP so I could set up MCPs from an app or upsells from the app?

We're not far at all. Yeah, so we already have the read piece. The write piece is being actively worked on. We're obviously just being careful about it. Like we want to not mess up any funnels by accident, but I would say like in the next few weeks we'll have writing to funnels. And then probably in a few months after that, you can just like have a full loop going where like, you know, the agent will just look at your analytics and then make the change and then so on.

Well, if any of your favorite podcasters and Winks co-founders could get early beta access to that, would be happy to be a partner on that.

For sure, Cody. I will DM you afterwards.

Let's go. I'm so bad at like setting up stuff in apps and stuff like that. I like have lost that skill.

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's just so many apps going on.

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All right. We've got getwinks.com pulled up here. I will say, you know, Cody, I think you mentioned this on Twitter. It looks like you guys moved towards more UGC. The original site had far more of like the little mascot character.

Yeah. Trying to get more trust. I'm just trying to kind of trust Max. Like that's the hard part right now. We don't have a lot, like we have some reviews, reviews. We don't have like real testimonials, but like if you look at a lot of the brands that are ripping and printing, like, you know, like Primal Queen or like something like that, like just even Mars Men, like so much social proof. Like they'll just have like stacked social proof, so many different ways to show it. And so that's what we're just trying to build towards. But I don't want to fake any of it, of course. And so it's just as we actually have legit testimonials and social proof coming in, we're doing that.

You know what I would tell my team? So we're looking at it here. Better sleep in one easy step. Doctor formulated, no added melatonin.

You got like the little sub-value props below shop now.

CTA, 30-day guarantee, pause, skip, or cancel at any time. What I would tell my team is I feel like we have to be hitting values earlier.

I agree.

That should not be there. I agree. That's like not the right place for it.

Beautiful buy box. Special offer, save 26% plus 4 free gifts. You guys are running. So this is 28, 20-night supply, 28-night supply, $48 was $65.

That, uh, 28 is cheeky. You know, instead of monthly, it's 28. That's, that's, that's, I respect that.

Yeah. You got a, you got an extra, uh, billing cycle throughout the year. I hear.

That's a great, I mean, honestly, that's a great, that's one of my favorite optimizations going from 30-day to 28. And then, I mean, it makes sense. We should be on a more calendar-based system. All the months are screwed up by days. Uh, so we should be on a weekly calendar. And then, yeah, to Cody's point, you get almost a full rebill every year.

Connor, what do you think? Because when we were talking earlier about like just getting signal on Meta, I'm kind of like, do we actually go more aggressive with offer or maybe just set up like a landing page just to get signal and like worry about margin later? What do you think?

I don't know what the margins look like. I also don't know what competitors look like, but you see the like Mars Men or Everyday Dose. Um, I mean, some of these, some of these other brands, like they're, they're $20, Days subscriptions are like $29 or whatever, $39. I do think $48, you guys are ending on somewhat the high end here. I was going to ask, um, on the point of pricing that we touched on earlier, I like the difference between $65 and $48. Varun just called it out. I think that's probably enough. Sean and I will argue about this because Sean will argue one-time purchase should be significantly higher, that you should, it should be $89. You get a huge markdown for going to the subscription. But my big concern is like, I, what you should be optimizing for is just like net new customers. And then considering that these one-time purchasers, like, will have some amount of retention if they like the product, they'll purchase it again, or they'll come back for a subscription or whatever else. So making that one-time purchase disincentivized enough so that you are driving subscriptions, but at the same time, not so out egregiously priced that like nobody's ever going to shop one-time purchase, because I think that is net-net a negative. Um, so where are you landing on that, Cody?

Yeah, so we had, again, when we launched, we had the one-time purchase. It wasn't a box right here. We have like a small box. We had the one-time purchase just be like a line that we like, we wanted people to skip and miss. And we had it at $86. And Jordan Minard gave us feedback, but also just seeing some data, we're like, we just need signal. Like we just need to lower the prices, get signal. We don't care if it's a one-time or a subscription right now. And in the future, we absolutely do. We just need to get signal and we're a brand new brand, no trust, no social proof, no signal. We just need purchases. So that was where it, so kind of like, this is not going to be our final offer. Like we probably need an offer that's worse for margin, better for just getting volume and customers. And then over time, that was why we removed our 90-day from here. We're like, we don't need to focus on AOV right now. Maybe later for an economic perspective.

Totally. Um, you know, the other thing that that reminds me of, so like, I don't see someone like Groove doing this. Maybe they do. Create is the one that I saw this a lot where their main page, their homepage would drive to a buy box where you could have a one-time purchase. You'd have the smaller one. They probably had some options around, um, moving to 90-day, things like that. Like a really flexible buy box that had a lot of different options from their homepage. 'Cause that's where their like highest intent traffic is going to come. It's the branded queries. It's some of the email marketing, it's the word of mouth. People are going to convert at a high rate and you can just like extract as much value as you can without a lot of downsides. And then their paid funnels would be like just subscription. It would just, they had a completely independent buy box there that would just push you to subscription. And I always felt conceptually like that was a nice balance.

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So this is $46 per bag. I just selected 2 bags. I'm going to check out and it's a $92 subscription. That's kind of unclear to me on, on first read here. Like, I don't, I didn't really, selecting quantity. Yeah, I, I, I don't quite understand what's happening here.

The, it's not clear, like what the pricing is?

Well, it's $46 per bag. I guess I'm getting 2 bags and what I'm going to add to cart here is $92. Just this select quantity, 1 bag, 2 bag, and then it's still being a 20-night, $46 per bag. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but like, I don't know. Uh, if I were just like, if I were just scrolling Instagram and I'm just clicking through, like I wouldn't quite understand what was happening there.

I'm also curious, like, why would you get 2 bags? Is it like you need a higher dosage? Is it for your partner? Is it like, what's the use case?

I guess that Varun's kind of making a clearer point that I was trying to make that like, I would love to just better understand why I would, why I would get 2 bags.

Yeah.

So we originally had it in that box of like, we said like how many people in the family are sleepers. And that was also partly when we were trying to take like the family angle and now we're not. The reason the, I think the price is confusing. We could do a better job with that, but I saw Groove did it. It's just, you'd rather show a lower number. So the price per bag is probably better to say versus 90, but could be more clear. I am planning on, tell me what you think, but I think you guys would agree. I'm actually planning on just cutting the quantity, just making it 1 by default. It also just, you know, simplifies things a little bit, moves up the CTA a little bit. Again, same thing. If we need to test getting AOV up later. We can test that, but right now it's like, we don't really care how many bags they're, they're getting. We just need customers.

I would be tempted to just remove quantity. I do agree if you are selling 2 bags, $46 per bag is better. And IM8 does that really aggressively where they just talk about the per 30-day cost or whatever. And, but then they're charging you on a quarterly rate. So it's like, it'll say $60 per month, but then what you're adding to cart is actually $180 because you're getting it for 3 months.

Yeah. And also somebody else pointed out, it's not a very good offer going from 1 to 2. It's, you're saving $2 per bag. It's not a good offer.

Fantastic. Like carousel images here. I think this is, we've talked about it quite a bit, but like, this was just not a thing 6 years ago. Like nobody would ever do this, like be as educational, have all these big infographics, super, super clean.

I appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're obviously all AI, so I'm going to work on getting some more real stuff. Like we have to do a few shoots and, um, I'm going to get more UGC in there for them. Like I think that's where we could do better, but I kind of just modeled the Groon's kind of framework for what they have on theirs.

We add to cart. We're looking at it here. I got one 20-night subscription. I've hit free shipping. We've got the progress bar here. Love it. We're articulating the free gifts, $25 Kaden Lake credit, Rise Sleep app, This is a great value.

Yeah.

We get some social proof.

I think I'm going to cut the upsell in there and then make that social proof card bigger. Um, with like maybe like a human image in there is my current thought. What do you think of that?

Yeah, I think that's good. This is, I'm being like nitpicky here, but like I actually originally registered these as being upsells. And it does say included with your free shipment, but like, if I think it might be like a little white noisy to people where it's like, you're just used to seeing like lines of things that you might want to add. And I didn't originally, or I didn't initially perceive it as like things that I'm getting. It felt, cause the reason to me is it feels independent of the product here. Like, you know, Shopify's default, like bundle, um, view is like, you have like the hero product and then the, the like included items would be line items within it.

Yeah.

Which might be another way to do it. And then you have like more, you could basically just move a bunch of stuff above the fold and better highlight some of the quotes and things.

Yeah, I agree with that. I was going to ask if you thought it's like a design thing that, A, it's like that headline could be bigger that says included with your first shipment. We could have less hierarchy devoted to the gifts, meaning like probably not a big box, not a big purple background. And then you're, to your point, if there's a way to kind of consolidate them under the main product.

It's a design and hierarchy thing where like these feel just as big as the actual product and therefore I read registered them as like other products that you're trying to sell me into.

That's totally fair and helpful.

Have you tested font size? I feel like this might be kind of small.

No, it's a little small. No, we haven't.

You gotta get big fonts.

Yeah, I gotta check that, especially on mobile.

Varun, you got anything for the cart?

Uh, I like the design and the branding. Uh, it feels, feels very on brand, very premium. Um, curious, Cody, like how you set it up.

So we had, but before I was involved, they hired a designer, um, who kind of just did initial stages and then Matt built like the V1 of the site, built the design system as well. And it's just been Matt and myself, but just kind of Codex, Claude, just going back and forth in it. We'll hire like a designer, we're gonna like, right? We're gonna like, everything was very, very AI to start. And now like we're looking for a photographer, we're gonna do some design stuff, but still keep doing as much AI as we can in there.

You guys are on Shopify Plus?

No, regular. Yeah. Okay.

So nothing crazy going on in the checkout here.

Yeah. I was just going to say like, it's, it's very vanilla.

Anything we should do or you think it's fine for now?

Well, I don't think you can do much, uh, given you're not on Plus.

Yeah. The thought didn't even occur to me. And then we like ran into one issue with our like subscription settings and I was like, damn, like, yeah, haven't, haven't not been on Plus ever.

Do we have a post-purchase thing here? Should I check out?

No, we don't yet. We don't yet. I have some drafts that I am excited to get live. Um, but I'll tell you plan. I think we'll go, if, if you're on a one-time, I will test, but planning to do the whole like, hey, you could get this refunded versus testing that with just more volume, you know, probably go to 3. And then obviously we'll do that. If you get a one-month, we'll go with the 3-month. That seems like that's just the no-brainer, as you mentioned.

Nice. That's awesome.

And yeah, I think if I can get, you know, Matt or Curtis or somebody to, to, to do some video, videos via sales, like that'll be a really fun one as well.

No, me just fumbling through, dude, I'm such a Shop Pay maximalist.

Just easy.

And then it's like, I got the Google Pay, LastPass Pay, all these things trying to prompt me. None of them have the right CVV. I'm not, I'm not a very sophisticated online shopper, to be honest, but, um, the Wink site is good. It would convert me.

Me too, man.

I actually already have, uh, An order in my house.

I'm going to try it soon.

Let's go.

Extremely productive episode for Cody. He's getting consulting advice. He's getting customers.

Almost got an order. I have an, I have an abandoned cart right now. I got to convince Connor to buy. I got, I got Varun in. That's, you got to go door to door at the beginning, early phases. Um, but no, this is helpful. Um, Varun, what else do you guys got cooking? What's, what's coming up? What's in the pipeline outside of the MCP that you can share with us? Because I feel like you guys got a lot up your sleeve right now.

Yeah, there's something really big coming out. I've teased it a little bit to a few people. Not going to announce it here, but I would say in a month or so, we'll have a very unique upselling feature that I think will have an immediate CRO impact for basically every brand. It'll be like a way that people checking out can get even more of something. I don't want to reveal exactly what it is, but yeah, just a little tease there.

Connor, it might be the Double Dash.

There we go.

Hopefully.

Fingers crossed.

All right. Awesome. And then Varun, so everyone will stay tuned. I'm super excited to hear about that. Where can people learn more about you? Where can people follow you? Where can people interact with Aftersell?

Yeah, for sure. You can follow me, Varun Khindra, on Twitter. Aftersell's on Twitter too. That's probably where we're most active. And then Um, yeah, I mean, people can, you know, feel free to email me, message me, whatever. I'm, I'm always open.

I feel like a lot of your team has gotten really active as well. There's like a lot of you guys now.

Yeah, yeah, we've done like a great push for it internally. Um, we recently had, uh, this guy Russell join on our team, uh, and in just his first few weeks, he's gotten like, I think, over 100K impressions on Twitter. So shout out to him, like incredible, incredible results. He's like, he's a natural on Twitter.

All right, man. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was great. I got a lot of good free consulting about this, but I think for everybody, there'll be a lot of good tips and tactical things they can go and implement.